@StackDigest
New York, NY
Joined January 2023
smstack.eth retweeted
A few reflections on the lattice vs. hash-only debate that our recent Aerie post sparked: 1. Cryptographic ossification for blockchains was never safe. Until the day we know with certainty that P ≠ NP, that finding short vectors in lattices is intractable, that Keccak effectively behaves like a random oracle in deployed SNARKs, and that every single bug has been eliminated from our codebases, blockchains cannot ossify. That is simply not how safe systems are built. Issues will arise, and the system will have to respond. It’s a double standard to reject lattices because blockchains are hard to upgrade if lattices break, while counting on upgrades if AI breaks your hash function or finds a critical zkVM bug. The best counterargument is that hash-only designs are more agile: if your hash function breaks, just swap out the hash. But we must aspire to a higher level of agility than this. Indeed, as I cover next, if SNARK recursion itself turns out to degrade security, the proposed hash-only blockchain designs would need to be rethought from the ground up. 2. The real security debate is not lattices vs. hashes — it is lattices vs. building everything on SNARK recursion. That’s because “hash-only” is not really hash-only: it rests on hashes plus the soundness of deep SNARK recursion. Ethereum’s roadmap relies on exactly that: hash-based aggregation needs recursion to keep up with a slot’s worth of signatures, and EIP-8288 would send other signature schemes and users’ own proofs through the same recursive pipeline. In contrast, Aerie proves a slot’s worth of signatures on one laptop without any recursion. All deployed post-quantum SNARKs rely on the Random Oracle Methodology (via Fiat–Shamir) to establish their security. This is an idealization we know fails in the real world: we have explicit counterexamples where “SNARKs” coming out of this methodology are totally insecure when instantiated with any concrete hash function. We generally ignore these counterexamples in part because they only arise when proving contrived, self-referential statements about the very hash function used by the SNARK verifier. But proving statements about the verifier’s own hash function is the exact thing you do in SNARK recursion. That’s why the security of recursive SNARKs can’t be established even in the random oracle model. On top of that, the standard security proofs for recursion (in other models) suffer an “extractor runtime” blowup that is exponential in the recursion depth, suggesting that security may degrade as more recursion is applied. Yet Ethereum’s own EIP-8288 enables unlimited-depth recursion, even as it lists soundness of recursive SNARKs as a trust assumption. Proofs in more idealized models avoid the blowup, but they mainly tell us that an attack on SNARK recursion would have to exploit the concrete hash function, which is exactly what the Fiat–Shamir attacks above do. To be clear, we don’t know of any outright attacks on SNARK recursion, and I very much hope it is secure. But some of us who have studied the question have a lingering sense that an attack may be possible in some settings. And if AI is going to supercharge cryptanalysis, there is no reason to expect it to spare Fiat–Shamir for SNARKs, let alone SNARK recursion, both of which have had far less scrutiny than lattices. So, I do not concede that a “recursion everywhere” hash-only approach is clearly more conservative than one built on standard lattice assumptions. 3. “Just wrap everything in a hash-based SNARK” (like EIP-8288) faces challenges. Aggregating signatures and proofs off-chain into a single block-level proof is a powerful design independent of the hash-only vs. lattice debate, and I am not telling people to avoid it. But claiming, as Vitalik Buterin did this week, that users can run whatever cryptography they want locally and wrap it in a client-side leanVM proof glosses over major hurdles. For example, leanVM today is a minimal VM designed almost entirely to prove hash-based signatures and recursion, not general-purpose computation. And binary-field SNARKs like leanVM remain slow at proving the integer multiplications that lattice cryptography does en masse. I am optimistic that many of these zkVM challenges can be met (including via my own work, binary-field Twist and Shout, which are now implemented in Magnetar). But regardless, if lattices can make aggregation simpler and faster, then they should be leveraged. We need to be agile no matter what. 4. For chains whose reason for existence is privacy, I truly struggle to understand the pushback. Public-key encryption (and fast single-server PIR) cannot be built from hashes alone, at least not in any black-box way. If lattices break, it is going to be very, very hard for these chains to provide acceptable levels of privacy and functionality. For a project whose entire reason for existence is privacy, a loss of confidentiality is an existential failure. Next to that, a second signature upgrade (after the first one, from elliptic curves alone to, hopefully, a hybrid lattice scheme) is easy. Summary: We don’t know for sure what is secure and what isn’t. We are all weighing unquantifiable risks against each other, and we do not need to agree on a total order on them. But hash-only solutions face many open engineering challenges, and they are not more “conservative” in the way some have argued. Some of those challenges are entirely prosaic and have nothing to do with bugs or cryptography, like hardware support for custom schemes whose hash function is still undecided. I hope we can overcome those challenges within the appropriate timelines, but they must be acknowledged and portrayed realistically. Overall, cryptographic agility and defense in depth (e.g., hybrid signatures) are the answer, which is why we are building both lattice-Jolt and hash-Jolt. In practice, the positions are less polarized than social media discourse suggests: for example, StarkWare is working to make Falcon verification cheap (falcon.provably.fast/), which is great to see. Here is the (apparently) controversial take I am sticking to: Conditioned on agility, whenever lattices make systems simpler or more functional, we should embrace them rather than default to “hash-only” designs. Lattices are what the rest of the world will depend on, with decades of study and hardening behind them, and at the system level, less functional often means less secure. Where hash-only designs are just as simple and functional, by all means use them.
23
59
21
242
28,277
I made a visualization of EIP-8288 aka "recursive mempool aggregation," my new favorite EIP of all time because it perfectly encapsulates the thesis of the "cryptographic world computer" -- a system whose scalability *increases*, not decreases, with the level of decentralization. In a previous tweet I explained how EIP-8288 achieved this seemingly impossible feat, but one gif is worth a thousand words. Essentially, EIP-8288 leverages Ethereum's decentralized mempool as a parallel ZK proving cluster. Clients send signatures and proofs to the mempool, which over multiple rounds progressively aggregate them into fewer and fewer proofs, until the block builder finally aggregates them into one SINGLE proof. This design accomplishes five things at once: - The more nodes we add to the decentralized mempool, the more signatures/proofs Ethereum can process as a whole. This is obvious if you look at the animation and imagine more nodes in the mempool ring, which would "fan out" to more signatures/proofs. - By aggregating over multiple rounds (aka "recursive aggregation"), the bandwidth consumed by proofs remains constant for each node even as the network processes more proofs. As a result, the network stays decentralized even as capacity increases. - By aggregating proofs before one final aggregation by the builder, as opposed to requiring the builder to aggregate everything, the network can process more proofs without increasing hardware requirements for the builder. - By aggregating everything to a single block-level proof, validators can verify thousands of signatures/proofs by checking just one aggregated proof. Hardware requirements for validators can therefore stay low, keeping the network decentralized. - By aggregating not just native signatures but also STARKs, Ethereum can support any signature scheme by wrapping them in STARKs. So once again, this is how Ethereum will: - scale to process tens of thousands of PQ and private transactions per second - charge a tiny amount of gas to validate each txn, even though the original signature/proof may be huge (up to hundreds of KBs in size) - all while decentralizing even MORE. You are not bullish enough.
Ultimately, precompiles and EVM are both the wrong place to put most cryptography support into Ethereum. The reason is that precompiles and EVM both operate on data that has to be included into the ethereum chain somehow, which realistically means included in a block as calldata. That space is limited - even with PeerDAS and blocks-in-blobs, there's a practical cap of ~8 MB/s before it starts getting uncomfortable. Remember: it's not a blockchain. It's a cryptographic world computer. Any data/computation that does not need to be in the "main thread" of data/execution should not be put into the main thread. Instead, the correct solution is... EIP-8288 maximalism. If you have any heavy computation that's self-contained, compute it and STARK it client-side (this is quickly getting faster and faster, even on phones), and push the STARK through the EIP-8288 recursive aggregation mechanism. The chain sees the fact that the computation was done and what the result is; it never needs to see the actual data and computation. This way everyone can use whatever cryptography they want, the Ethereum chain can be lean, and we never need to add more precompiles again.
21
64
13
311
18,351
100%, these days such claims sound to me like a bet that Ethereum won’t be able to prepare for PQ era - which won’t happen
PQ resistance is *not* a moat. Essentially everyone will have it and claims of PQ superiority over Ethereum from certain chains are intellectually dishonest arguments.
1
68
Have to agree with this!
Replying to @SuccinctJT
11/ Private transfers need public-key encryption, which provably can’t be built from hashes alone. So avoiding lattices in signatures and proofs doesn’t remove the dependence on lattices. It just trades their benefits for a false sense of security.
3
155
As @VitalikButerin pointed out yesterday, zkVM proving speed is becoming less of a bottleneck. With binary fields and advances in PCS like WHIR and Ligerito, the progress is impressive. But beyond security, I think we should focus more on usability. A few questions worth digging into: - How easily can existing application or client logic be compiled and proved in a zkVM? - How can we reduce the onchain verification cost of hash-based SNARKs on the EVM? - How practical is client-side proving in browsers and on mobile devices, and how far can we optimize it? I’m particularly interested in the second question. If you’re working on this or have interesting ideas, please DM me!
Introducing Magnetar from Microsoft Research, the first zkVM that is: (1) general-purpose (RV64), (2) post-quantum from standard hashes alone (no curves, no lattices, no Poseidon), and (3) built for recursion. Despite its conservative security, it is the fastest zkVM: 7.2–8.7 MHz on a laptop, 10–39× faster than existing zkVMs across 15 workloads! An optimized version reaches 9.5–12.8 MHz. Links in the thread below.
1
11
906
You can bring your Safe & Fireblocks MPC wallet to Privacy Boost with no extra key setup or module installation!
[How Privacy Boost Works #5]: Keep Your Safe, Make Payments Private Why give up your multisig to go private? With Privacy Boost V2, a regular Safe transaction approves each private spend. Onchain shows the approval, not who got paid or how much. Full detail below ↓
3
165
This is so important on apps that leverage ZK proofs on L2s, since L2s cannot adopt EIP-8288 style native proof verification.
RISC-V is the answer. One very late puzzle piece that contributed to me walking away from EOF at great personal cost was the full-throated endorsement by V for ossifying the EVM as a RISC-V compiled program, and RISC-V guest programs becoming a valid target for smart contracts. I also think that the idea of banning precompiles and expecting people to EVMify things like PQ crypto schemes is bonkers and regressive. The EVM ISA is wrong for this. RISC-V is a real ISA for the kind of bit twiddling encryption requires, especially if they bring in the vector extensions. But I'm not holding my breath for anything other than the current schemes. This leaves open a more functional rule for "precompiles" in the zk era, in that precompiles are only considered when they have more efficient ZK circuit constructions than a simple RISC-V implementation, like the proposed FAEST encryption scheme. Otherwise you get charged based on RISC-V cycle count. This is the way.
2
133
smstack.eth retweeted
RISC-V is the answer. One very late puzzle piece that contributed to me walking away from EOF at great personal cost was the full-throated endorsement by V for ossifying the EVM as a RISC-V compiled program, and RISC-V guest programs becoming a valid target for smart contracts. I also think that the idea of banning precompiles and expecting people to EVMify things like PQ crypto schemes is bonkers and regressive. The EVM ISA is wrong for this. RISC-V is a real ISA for the kind of bit twiddling encryption requires, especially if they bring in the vector extensions. But I'm not holding my breath for anything other than the current schemes. This leaves open a more functional rule for "precompiles" in the zk era, in that precompiles are only considered when they have more efficient ZK circuit constructions than a simple RISC-V implementation, like the proposed FAEST encryption scheme. Otherwise you get charged based on RISC-V cycle count. This is the way.
Ethereum is about to make a decision it can never undo, and almost nobody is talking about it here. Which instruction set should post-quantum proofs run on? Sounds boring. It isn't. On Thursday, soispoke posted a breakdown on ethresear dot ch, and one number jumped out. The same hash, run through EVM code, took 78 to 163 times more cycles than plain RISC-V. So why does this even matter? EIP-8288 lets a transaction depend on post-quantum signatures and STARK proofs that are checked outside the EVM. Nodes verify them before passing the transaction along, and each block carries one recursive STARK that proves all of them at once. Take a privacy pool. Today it verifies a Groth16 proof using the BN254 precompile. A quantum computer that breaks BN254 could forge those proofs. With EIP-8288, the pool doesn't verify anything itself anymore. It just checks that the transaction depends on a valid proof for its program. Clean, right? Except EIP-8288 currently identifies proofs by a verification key hash, and that key changes whenever leanVM upgrades its proof system. Upgrade the prover, and every immutable pool pinned to the old key is dead. The proposed fix is to name the program, not the key. Each program gets an ID from a hash of the instruction set version and its bytes. Future provers then have to keep proving every old version forever, the same way clients carry every past fork. Which brings us back to the real question: which instruction set? The EVM is the obvious choice, because we already have it. But even compiled ahead of time to RISC-V, it's still 17 to 20 times slower, because everything is 256-bit words. RISC-V is fast and native to the prover. A custom Ethereum instruction set might beat both, but it doesn't exist yet. To be fair, the author says there isn't enough data to decide. And one reply pushes back hard, saying the EVM comparison is unfair and Ethereum should own its instruction set instead of handing RISC-V to users. Whatever we pick gets frozen into immutable contracts for decades.
3
1
18
907
smstack.eth retweeted
Introducing: Privacy Boost for @Morpho integrators Fintechs, neobanks and wallets building Earn products powered by Morpho can now shield their users' balances from public view with our SDK.
1
4
2
21
1,804
Niceee visualization! ❤️
Today we’re launching Blobs - a new page to follow Ethereum blob activity in real time! Blobs also replaces DABEAT, which we’re sunsetting because @ethereum has plenty of unused blob capacity, and that capacity will only keep growing. We explain the decision in more detail in the article linked below.
5
179
Excited to see this!!! I’m really, really curious about the mainnet gas fee move after glam. My random thoughts here: - Increasing scalability necessarily induces increase of spam. This happened to all chains that has low block time and huge blockspaces. - And I believe that’s also the reason why @base stopped increasing its gas limit and raised its base fee. I remember @arbitrum did same before? But not sure - Also, Ethereum has followed same way. As it increases its gas limit from 30M to 60M, I remember spams mostly filled the extra spaces. - But the difference I see here is, the profile of spams are different. At L2s, big portion of spams are for backrunning; for onchain MEV searching. This is because PGA is not an ultimate solution to capture MEV, and most times spams become superior strategy for searchers. - However, on Ethereum, the spams come from address poisoning. I believe this is because Ethereum has PBS, superior strategy to do MEV stuffs for searchers. - So, after glam, extra blockspaces will be filled by address poisoning, but I’m curious about ‘how much’. Will address poisoning fill it up to 200Mgas? Or any other spam activities? Or other real use cases? Anyway, it would be super fun to watch the block profile before & after Glamsterdam!
you are not ready for glamsterdam
5
210
If this is true, I think one of the top priorities should be transitions to hash-based SNARKs on ZK. AI accelerating ECDLP not only affects ECDSA, but also pairing-based SNARKs like Groth16 or PLONK. This means you can forge proofs for every ZK rollups and privacy protocols, if you are able to solve ECDLP in an efficient way. A big blocker here, is the verification cost. Afaik there’s no efficient way to verify hash-based SNARKs or STARKs on EVM. There’re some ongoing researches on verifying WHIR on EVM, but I guess it takes around 5M-10M, which may be tolerable on systems like L2s that aggregate multiple user txs, but not on privacy protocols. This also affects the headliner of Hegota, frame transactions. Relayerless privacy protocol, which is one of the main use cases of frame transaction, cannot be implemented with Groth16. I’m not sure how to solve this, because usually hash-based SNARKs have proof size over 100 KB. This means that there will be minimum floor due to the calldata size even if we adopt a dedicated precompile for verifying those algorithms.
Today I call upon the blockchain industry to calmly begin planning for "bunker mode". My personal recommendation is to set in motion a controlled mass migration of assets to fresh addresses, i.e. addresses whose pubkeys remain hidden behind a hash. Holders, starting with large and sophisticated ones, should consider moving the bulk of their funds to addresses that have never signed a transaction. And when they do sign one, they should also move remaining funds to a new address (possibly generated from the same seed phrase). Don't rush. While I believe there is cause for action a rushed migration would do more harm than good. Don't panic either. Moving assets to protected addresses is a simple, preventative step which does not require new cryptography or new wallets. IMO it is now reasonable to brace for the possibility that ECDSA breaks before qday, in the worst case in months not years. By "break" I mean fast private key recovery (e.g. in one week) on available hardware (e.g. a large GPU cluster). Recent days have been humbling for human mathematical intuition. Long-held, unquestioned hypotheses have fallen. This includes the n log(n) bound for integer multiplication and the 3SUM conjecture. In hindsight, May's unexpected disproof of the Erdős unit distance conjecture was our warning shot. Yesterday's OpenAI drop made it clear that mathematical superintelligence is upon us. They say there are weeks where decades happen. We are about to live through weeks where centuries of mathematical progress happen. Could our magic 64-byte ECDSA signatures be too good to be true? Was it just security through obscurity all this time? Elliptic curves feel especially vulnerable to superintelligence. Curves carry rich structure, with room for fancy tricks like Schoof, Frobenius, pairings. (By contrast, hashes are designed to minimise algebraic structure.) Separately, as Ewin Tang can attest, an efficient quantum algorithm sometimes foreshadows an efficient classical one. We should be open to the possibility of a classical counterpart to Shor that breaks elliptic curves and RSA at once. Also noteworthy is the striking under-representation of cryptographic breakthroughs among the 722 mathematical results OpenAI published. I've witnessed first-hand the US government censoring academic quantum cryptanalysis results. Backroom interventionism is my base case. I urge large, sophisticated actors to lead by example. Project11's "risq list" (bitcoin-risq-list.projecteleven[.]com) is a great tracker of exposed BTC pubkeys. Binance, Bitbank, Robinhood, Bitfinex, and Tether have an opportunity to harden their cold storage. Next month I'll address institutions in London in a live Q&A (forum.ethereuminstitutional[.]org/london-2026). Again, please do not rush. Wallets holding under 50 BTC enjoy partial cover from "Satoshi's shield", i.e. his 20K exposed addresses that hold 50 BTC each. Load-bearing signers like oracles and L2 security councils should consider rotating ECDSA pubkeys with every signed message and/or multi-signing with a hash-based schemes like SPHINCS. Exiting bunker mode safely will require post-AI cryptography. My inclination is to go all-in on hash-based cryptography and avoid structured mathematical assumptions entirely, whether from curves, lattices, or isogenies. A single battle-tested hash (e.g. from the SHA or BLAKE families) yields plausible post-AI security. The Ethereum roadmap on strawmap[.]org fully embraces hash-based cryptography with end-to-end formal verification as a response to the quantum threat. Those timelines must now be revisited and accelerated in light of mathematical superintelligence. I'll be pushing for maximum defensive acceleration.
1
10
564
smstack.eth retweeted
announcing nativerollups.fyi, a closed devnet based on frames-devnet-0 running a (half mocked) native rollup on top a native rollup is an L2 that inherits L1's STF directly, greatly reducing complexity, governance and bug risks. here's how it works 🧵
15
27
6
182
8,750
smstack.eth retweeted
Our core engineer @StackDigest took the stage at Ethereum Korea One to walk through how Privacy Boost was built around the requirements institutions bring to onchain privacy. Thanks to @ethereumkoreaio for having us.
1
1
1
12
797
Pixel dot wassie by Muse
4
96
📋Withdrawing EIP-8363 from consideration for Hegotá. EIP-8363 rapidly became one of the most commented-on EIPs in the history of the Ethereum-Magicians forum, with 200+ comments in a few weeks. As we progressed through the Hegotà CFI (Consideration For Inclusion) process, several parties in the industry as well as core protocol and client contributors voiced that a fork scoping exercise was not the right venue to settle an issuance policy change. We agree and we'd rather acknowledge this now than carry on towards Hegotà in this context. The topic is too important and raised too many concerns that it deserves its own process. We commit to giving issuance its own process and we thank the entities such as @LidoFinance who offered to help steer such an initiative. We stand by the motivation of this EIP, in particular: “a very high staking ratio is undesirable for two distinct reasons (...), preserving Ethereum’s security, neutrality and resistance to capture, and protecting ETH’s role as money.” Not everybody immediately relates to both reasons and for others recognizing just one of these reasons is enough to justify a change. Nevertheless, we will all benefit from improving our understanding of the issue and what is at stake. The questions we have faced since we published EIP-8363 can be boiled down to 5 categories: ➡️Security: What does a lower ratio actually secure versus a higher ratio? ➡️Industry impact: What else is built on the yield and what will be the impact ? ➡️Curve specs and alternate tools: Is this curve even the right instrument? ➡️Composition: Who is left staking (the effect on the composition of the validator set) ? ➡️Decentralization: How will solo stakers be impacted by the reduction? We already argued a lot, conceded some and adjusted a few points in the very long Ethereum-Magicians thread mentioned supra. For a broader consensus to emerge and a better issuance policy for Ethereum to be designed and adopted, we need a dedicated process. We call for all willing hands to help and contribute to this, please do reach out. Here’s our start at what a multi-node process would look like (table attached). Onward and forward, let’s improve Ethereum.
🚨 New EIP: Tapered Issuance Burn We just submitted an EIP to ethereum/EIPs: a minimal, market-driven fix to Ethereum's issuance policy removing the incentive for stake growth beyond 50% of ETH supply. EIP-8361 by @pintail_xyz, @jdetychey, @dapplion, @pa7x1, @ladislaus0x & @drakefjustin 🧵
33
36
20
201
46,617
I thought mechanical slashing won’t actually deter the collusion of supermajority, and the real cost is the danger of social slashing. I think this has been considered from the design of various PoS chains? attacks from supermajority (e.g. 66% on Ethereum) should only be handled via social fork. If the research was to contribute to breaking the common belief, won’t they have to model the cost of social slashing properly? I’m curious whether the paper’s risk-free collusion equilibrium remains an equilibrium once validators assign a non-zero probability to a social fork in which the colluding stake is excluded or destroyed. That seems like the economically relevant tail risk for a supermajority attack, rather than the mechanical slashing that the attackers can censor themselves.
New from LZ Research: Too Late to Slash Today we’re sharing a new paper challenging a common belief: slashing backs the security of proof-of-stake blockchains. Read the full research paper: layerzero.network/blog/too-l…
5
395
Ethereum Korea One Day 2 is live in Seongsu Today's highlights • ​15:00–15:30 Flash Boys or Superforecasters? | Danning Sui (Pantera Capital) • ​​16:30–17:00 Ethereum's Issuance Wars | Hyung-Kyu Choi (DSRV), Jerome de Tychey (EthCoordinate), Isidoros Passadis (Lido) • ​​​17:30–18:30 Are L2s Still Scaling Ethereum? | Harry Jeon (Sunnyside Labs), Ed Felten (Offchain Labs), Chris Andreola (Optimism), Ilia Volokh (StarkWare) Day 2 is a full day dedicated to the people actually shipping Ethereum is where capital and policy meet Ethereum. Full schedule and speaker lineup below 📍 luma.com/0a4zc5a6
1
7
10
41
11,960