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Claude Boiron retweeted
Here are my thoughts after listening to @0xMarcB of @0xPolygon, hosted by @robbie_rollup on the @therollupco podcast.
We at @2077Research have always been excited about this discussion on the evolution of Polygon over time, delving into great detail about AggLayer's architecture, network effects, and future plans for scaling and integrating with other chains.
Polygon: POS or zkEVM?
Initially renowned for a chain where MATIC was farmed during the DeFi summer, Polygon has undergone an exponential evolution, progressively shifting its focus to mass adoption and the enterprise side of cryptocurrency. However, this led to Polygon Light's decline. A year later, they are resolute and determined to help become more crypto-native and develop products for users and Web3 in general by focusing on cross-chain settlement, specifically the AggLayer.
This new mission has brought about a lot of questions among the community surrounding the need for the Polygon POS and zkEVM then. Polygon’s POS, as stated by 0xMarcB, powers the @Polymarket, as it has a lot of users and attracts liquidity on the side as well to the POS chain, as seen during the US 2024 election period. POS aids AggLayer by bringing a boatload of real users and a bit of liquidity. On the other side, zkEVM is to be relaunched into a DeFi-focused chain that aims to act as a liquidity chain for other chains in the AggLayer aggregated network.
AggLayer: The Ultimate Liquidity Unifier Across Multiple Chains?
According to @robbie_rollup, during the bull season, where the green candles are up and there are vibes, there seems to be less infighting in the rollup scene as opposed to when things aren’t going as intended, which brings about a lot of competition among various rollups for users and liquidity. But when AggLayer's vision comes to fruition, the landscape shifts because it will impact the entire Web3 ecosystem through liquidity knock-on effects.
@0xMarcB further expressed his passion for the vision of AggLayer to bring about the unification of the entire ecosystem. According to him, Polygon purposefully markets itself as an AggLayer contributor rather than as their own in order to allow for other chains like Arbitrum, Scroll, and Optimism to contribute to it without being reluctant, as it can be seen as such projects contributing to the Polygon’s ecosystem. AggLayer remains neutral to the entire Web3 ecosystem as it is a fundamental low-level framework that allows other services to build on it. AggLayer does not compare nor compete with shared sequencers or intents and allows even rollup clusters to exist within its layer.
@0xMarcB made a statement that in 3-4 weeks time, any EVM chain can be added to the AggLayer, which drives unification as we then tend to see @Optimism stack chains, Orbit, and even Polygon CDK chains connecting to the AggLayer. Then, in a few months, we would get to see L1s and even non-EVM chains connecting to the AggLayer. He continued by suggesting that the users in Solana be moved to Etthereum.
@robbie_rollup mentioned a discussion on Twitter (X) space with @hal2001 of @AcrossProtocol , who was advocating for intents and the cross-chain intent framework. Polygon was known for promoting the AggLayer, so he understood why the Polygon main account was advocating for intents. His realization being that both intents and the AggLayer are synergistic with one another as the AggLayer can verify the transfer onto the destination chain via its zK proving and aggregation proofs. AggLayer shines in such cases as it has zk proofs baked into its core protocol architecture, allowing it to easily do verifications. He further noted that interop solutions are beginning to work with one another, which brings a unified Ethereum ecosystem.
@0xMarcB further pointed out the reason why the AggLayer works with @Acrossprotocol. Across protocol, which is powered by intents, requires solvers on different networks, as these solvers directly translate to having capitals on different networks. This is quite tiring to fully realize that having capital is expensive and the timeframe to rebalance an executed trade is noticeable. This is where the AggLayer comes in, as it makes it possible to rebalance the capital in seconds asynchronously. The AggLayer simply lowers the users cost in performing trades and lowers the risks for intents providers and solvers.
How the incentive structure will change due to Interop Solutions
The incentive structure will change once a proper interop solution is standardized. The current scene is filled with various interop solutions competing with one another, and this is not meant to be. The AggLayer, one of the interop solutions, needs to scale in order to counterbalance the effect of having multiple rollup clusters by unifying both the asynchronous and synchronous clusters.
In the world of asynchronous clusters such as ZKSync Elastic Chain, which introduces an asynchronous experience within all of its clusters, this creates a fragmentation problem, as other synchronous clusters are unable to interop with it. @0xMarcB envisioned a future where all chains decide to use the same framework to make interoperability easy, such as the Superchain ecosystem. The Superchain ecosystem all uses the shared sequencer, which gives them synchronous transactions. This can further be improved by introducing the AggLayer, which serves two purposes:
The AggLayer introduces an added security layer for all transactions.
The AggLayer can be used for asynchronous transactions, both within and outside of the superchain.
He went on to say that the @zksync Elastic chain and the AggLayer have similar designs, and that the AggLayer is more than just a Polygon by-product to dominate the interop market, but rather a tool to drive Ethereum's unification. He noted that the AggLayer remains neutral and has about 30 contributors.
All clusters are the same, according to @robbie_rollup, but they have different underlying tech stacks; some are ZK, optimistic, some use shared sequencers, and some are developing their own interop solutions. In the future, we will tend to see more clusters spring up, and he believes that the combination of intents and the AggLayer is the key leading solution to connect all the clusters together.
A Thesis on the Business Model of AggLayer
According to @0xMarcB, the network effects of the AggLayer are still unknown as they are still figuring it out.
The AggLayer will start collecting network fees as the years go by, which flow through the POL holders, according to his further suggested business plan. This is due to the fact that when the AggLayer gets decentralized, the key actors running the decentralizing network infrastructure need to receive some form of network incentive. He suggested that the fee price could be 0.0000001 per transaction, and it gets settled on the AggLayer. The AggLayer then becomes a low-level framework, which has no impact on fees for users to worry about. This may turn the AggLayer into a billion-dollar valuation company.
The AggLayer is not focused on developing high-fee, rent-seeking strategies in the near term. Instead, they are taking a long-term view, aiming for a 5 to 10-year horizon. By that time, they anticipate massive growth in both the user base and on-chain liquidity, presenting the best opportunity to maximize profits.
How the AggLayer can be scaled
@AggLayer's initial plan to scale and link several chains was to begin by linking all of the chains that used execution proofs. However, this plan was quickly abandoned when they discovered how small the market was for those chains. This led them to figure out the way any chain can be connected.
The AggLayer has addressed this challenge through a pessimistic proof—a mechanism that tracks the balance of a chain. This proof ensures that transactions, such as cross-chain transfers, are only executed after verifying that the chain has sufficient balance to complete the transaction. This allows any chain to connect to the AggLayer. For instance, the Polygon POS before it’s connected to the AggLayer is connected through the Proof of Consensus. Prior to using Polygon POS, the AggLayer establishes the POS consensus because it does not yet have execution proofs. Based on the proof, the POS can be relied upon to have the appropriate balance to complete the transaction.
In order to achieve unification as the AggLayer starts to scale, they are currently developing a toolkit similar to the SVM toolkit, which is integral in achieving such a future, and this makes it easier to connect to any chain such as Cosmos, BVM, etc. Furthermore, when the cost and latency of provers decrease, the AggLayer's throughput should be maximized, leading to millions of transactions having low execution latency and costs.
Parts of the AggLayer
@0xMarcB delved into breaking down the parts of the AggLayer to further understand how users are able to use the AggLayer. The components of the AggLayer include:
A unified bridge.
A pessimistic proof: This provides security for the AggLayer
Proof of Aggregation: This component wraps the proofs and submits them to Ethereum.
Fast interval:
How do users interact with the AggLayer?
Users will primarily engage with the AggLayer through applications and wallets designed to simplify cross-chain transactions. A notable example is the Octo Wallet, which @0xMarcB enthusiastically endorsed for its exceptional user experience. He mentioned that Octo Wallet allows users to send assets across different chains seamlessly, effectively eliminating the usual complexities associated with managing multiple wallets. This aligns with the broader vision of creating intuitive blockchain interactions where users can execute transactions rapidly and effortlessly. By focusing on user-friendly interfaces like Octo Wallet, we aim to enhance participation in the DeFi ecosystem, ultimately fostering greater adoption and liquidity across the entire network.
Moreover, the integration of ZK technology is crucial for enhancing trust and security within the ecosystem. As @0xMarcB mentioned, ZK proofs can significantly lower transaction costs and verify cross-chain transfers efficiently. This combination of user-friendly interfaces and robust ZK capabilities aims to make DeFi more accessible, fostering greater adoption and liquidity across the entire network. The ultimate goal is to create a seamless experience that encourages even newcomers to participate confidently in the blockchain space
NEW EP: AggLayer Mainnet Launch Is Coming With Marc Boiron
AggLayer is a neutral interoperability solution that doesn't force chains into walled gardens.
For today's episode, @robbie_rollup speaks with @0xMarcB of @0xPolygon to unpack Polygon's evolution from PoS to zkEVM, AggLayer's stack, pessimistic proving, shared bridges, and the push towards mainnet.
Full episode links below.
Timestamps:
00:45 Introduction
01:42 Evolution of Polygon
06:24 The AggLayer As Neutral
17:16 Network Effects of AggLayer
21:19 Connecting Chains and Scalability of AggLayer
25:03 UX & Tech Stack of AggLayer
34:52 Why We Need ZK
Claude Boiron retweeted
Marc, Sandeep and the Polygon team put together the full story of what happened on the bridge proposal. Very courageous move. Many teams are facing similar situations but would never speak up like this. Times are changing now.
I highly recommend reading the full post 👇
TLDR:
• Polygon governance was great over the last few days, showing it knows how to take a strong position against a proposal it dislikes.
• Aave and surrounding teams are monopolies that use dirty tactics to create fear.
• Aave and those teams did the same when proposing to shut down Polygon PoS in reaction to Morpho potentially receiving bridge assets that they themselves made a proposal for a month ago.
I’m proud of the governance process that played out in only a few short days on the Polygon forum and X. People should always stand firm in what they believe and make their voices known.
Others need to be outed for the destructive impact they have had on the web3 ecosystem, exhibiting massive monopolistic behavior to control lending in web3. Specifically the Aave and ACI teams were at their usual games yesterday. At the mention of only a pre-pip (many months away from anything real potentially happening), they put forward a proposal to wind down activities on Polygon PoS. Unlike Polygon governance, Aave governance is highly concentrated. @marczeller (Mark Zeller) reminded me of this yesterday when sending an unsolicited DM trying to intimidate me by informing me that his Aave DAO proposal was guaranteed to pass. I’ve never spoken to Marc Zeller in my life, and it was unsolicited only to create fear. The problem for him is that Polygon isn’t a nascent ecosystem that fears Aave; unfortunately, not all are in the same position, especially other lending protocols they attack.
Aave will seek support as they did yesterday to respond to this tweet and others to retain the control they have over lending in this industry. However, new players are emerging who will create a better web3 future. Upstanding people like @PaulFrambot , Founder of @MorphoLabs, @euler_mab, Founder of @eulerfinance, and @CoreyCaplan3, Founder of @Dolomite_io, will disrupt lending on a level playing field. Let’s create that level playing field so web3 should become what it can be.
How can web3 be better? Let’s just take Morpho as an example:
• Morpho developed simple, immutable code like Uniswap that can be deployed without centralized risk management of the Aave DAO. Decisions are made by that captured Aave DAO. Some say “just use Aave” but I think they really mean, “just use Marc Zeller.”
• Morpho has a much simpler code base with fewer attack vectors. Morpho actually used to use Aave until it had to fix so many bugs that it decided to build something better. No more constant war rooms that one day will unfortunately fail for Aave users.
• Morpho allows for significantly greater capital efficiency that can be tested and improved on in independent implementations of Morpho. This cannot happen with one giga-deployment of Aave that needs to be more conservative simply because it is less efficient.
• Morpho is so much simpler than Aave that it has much lower gas fees (3-5X lower fees). This is great for more complex integrations with a lending protocol.
• Morpho allows users to create personalized lending markets tailored to their specific needs and risk appetites. Aave has a standardized approach, where lending conditions are uniform across all of Aave.
• Morpho has a peer-to-peer lending model that mitigates overall economic risk for users. The impact of a default is limited to the specific market involved, preventing a single default from affecting other markets within the protocol. Aave's pooled liquidity model means a single default could potentially destabilize the entire pool. The whole concept of bad debt is so broad on Aave that all users need to at all times be vigilant.
It's time we build a truly open web3.
Claude Boiron retweeted
TLDR:
• Polygon governance was great over the last few days, showing it knows how to take a strong position against a proposal it dislikes.
• Aave and surrounding teams are monopolies that use dirty tactics to create fear.
• Aave and those teams did the same when proposing to shut down Polygon PoS in reaction to Morpho potentially receiving bridge assets that they themselves made a proposal for a month ago.
I’m proud of the governance process that played out in only a few short days on the Polygon forum and X. People should always stand firm in what they believe and make their voices known.
Others need to be outed for the destructive impact they have had on the web3 ecosystem, exhibiting massive monopolistic behavior to control lending in web3. Specifically the Aave and ACI teams were at their usual games yesterday. At the mention of only a pre-pip (many months away from anything real potentially happening), they put forward a proposal to wind down activities on Polygon PoS. Unlike Polygon governance, Aave governance is highly concentrated. @marczeller (Mark Zeller) reminded me of this yesterday when sending an unsolicited DM trying to intimidate me by informing me that his Aave DAO proposal was guaranteed to pass. I’ve never spoken to Marc Zeller in my life, and it was unsolicited only to create fear. The problem for him is that Polygon isn’t a nascent ecosystem that fears Aave; unfortunately, not all are in the same position, especially other lending protocols they attack.
Aave will seek support as they did yesterday to respond to this tweet and others to retain the control they have over lending in this industry. However, new players are emerging who will create a better web3 future. Upstanding people like @PaulFrambot , Founder of @MorphoLabs, @euler_mab, Founder of @eulerfinance, and @CoreyCaplan3, Founder of @Dolomite_io, will disrupt lending on a level playing field. Let’s create that level playing field so web3 should become what it can be.
How can web3 be better? Let’s just take Morpho as an example:
• Morpho developed simple, immutable code like Uniswap that can be deployed without centralized risk management of the Aave DAO. Decisions are made by that captured Aave DAO. Some say “just use Aave” but I think they really mean, “just use Marc Zeller.”
• Morpho has a much simpler code base with fewer attack vectors. Morpho actually used to use Aave until it had to fix so many bugs that it decided to build something better. No more constant war rooms that one day will unfortunately fail for Aave users.
• Morpho allows for significantly greater capital efficiency that can be tested and improved on in independent implementations of Morpho. This cannot happen with one giga-deployment of Aave that needs to be more conservative simply because it is less efficient.
• Morpho is so much simpler than Aave that it has much lower gas fees (3-5X lower fees). This is great for more complex integrations with a lending protocol.
• Morpho allows users to create personalized lending markets tailored to their specific needs and risk appetites. Aave has a standardized approach, where lending conditions are uniform across all of Aave.
• Morpho has a peer-to-peer lending model that mitigates overall economic risk for users. The impact of a default is limited to the specific market involved, preventing a single default from affecting other markets within the protocol. Aave's pooled liquidity model means a single default could potentially destabilize the entire pool. The whole concept of bad debt is so broad on Aave that all users need to at all times be vigilant.
It's time we build a truly open web3.
BIG UPDATE REGARDING STAKE THE BRIDGE AND AAVE SITUATION!
A few days back @AllezLabs and @Yearnfi put up a “Pre-PIP”, a proposal for the proposal, to enable staking of Polygon PoS bridge funds. The Polygon community made their voice heard and was generally against the proposal. I personally spoke to 50+ community members and feel that the pre-proposal in its current form does not address some of the concerns of the community and hence I am also unsupportive of the proposal. Considering many other Polygon community members, this STB pre-proposal looks to be rejected. Voicing loudly opinions against a proposal is a huge success of Polygon Governance.
NOW! Let's talk about what Aave leadership did here, but first a few facts:
Aave Campaigned Hard for the similar proposition previously
When this pre-proposal was first brought into discussion, Aave leadership was super excited about it and lobbied heavily to make sure the bridge funds go to Aave deployment.
During the public RFP process on Polygon Governance portal, Aave leadership had multiple meetings and invited Polygon Labs leadership to various dinner meetings and presentations to garner Polygon Labs support to “select Aave” for stake the bridge process.
They posted their own pre-PIP, which generated very little conversation in the Polygon community.
What Morpho Did Differently
Considering what Morpho wanted to bring into the Polygon ecosystem — huge grants to Polygon Defi community as incentives, superior decentralisation and control over contracts for the Polygon community, as well as very simple smart contracts with fewer attack vectors — Morpho got a head start in garnering other community members who were supportive of their vision of STBl. In this version, Aave was still going to receive a large part of the yield for its users on Polygon POS deployment.
Aave Attacking Polygon
Once there was some traction after Morpho (and others) posted their pre-PIP, Marc Zeller — a vocal delegate in the Aave community —posted a vicious threat proposing to discontinue Aave deployment on Polygon PoS bringing huge hassle to their users, just to make sure that the biggest and fastest-rising competitor to Aave - Morpho — didn’t get the growth boost from STB.
The proposal disregards the security measures already in place and feels more like “sour grapes” than a constructive contribution to the dialogue. Ironically, this move would harm the very users it claims to protect by disrupting their access to a stable and thriving DeFi ecosystem. It's hypocritical to claim concern for user security while simultaneously attempting to destabilize an ecosystem that so many depend on.
To underscore just how personal this attack was, a prominent Aave leader even went as far as tweeting, "Operation Polygon(e)."
This is extremely monopolistic and anti-competitive behaviour from Aave leadership and not at all aligned with the Ethos of Web3. This is a prominent example of a DAO leadership engaging in anti-competitive tactics and bullying other ecosystems to play to their tune.
The Polygon community should not be intimidated by monopolistic tactics or aggression and should continue to explore innovative mechanisms to achieve more success.
Our commitment is to a thriving, competitive, and truly decentralised DeFi ecosystem that serves the best interests of all users and builders. The Polygon community will continue to push the boundaries of what’s possible, standing resolute against any actions that undermine the principles of Web3.
We remain open and eager for positive, constructive dialogue with the community, but on equal terms. This goes both as well as with both for Morpho, and Aave or any other Web3 player to ensure a collaborative path forward.
RT @chamath: Peer reviewed journals are a scam amongst academics. It’s a “I scratch your back, you scratch mine” kind of thing. As a result…
This quoted post is unavailable.
Claude Boiron retweeted
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